Dorsey Ross Show
Hello, my name is Dorsey Ross, and I am the host of the Dorsey Ross Show. I am a minister and itinerant speaker. I started the Dorsey Ross Show to interview people of faith who have stories of faith and overcoming trials and difficulties. In this podcast, you will hear stories of all kinds. Some will make you laugh, cry, and even say I can connect with that story or that person. I would love to encourage you to check out these stories of faith, encouragement, and inspiration my guests share on the show. I hope these stories give you hope, to get you through your week and your life. Please share them with your family, friends, co-workers, and anyone who needs a little touch of encouragement today.
Dorsey Ross Show
David Libby's Story: Faith, Science, and Resilience
What happens when a family's active, rural life is turned upside down by a debilitating illness? In today's episode, we sit down with David Libby to hear his family's extraordinary story as they confronted the harsh realities of Lyme disease. David recounts the extreme symptoms his wife and daughters endured, from severe pain to seizures and mental health battles, bringing forth thought-provoking questions about faith, suffering, and resilience. Amid their trials, David found himself grappling with Ernst Haeckel's disteleological argument and seeking solace in the biblical narrative of suffering.
Can suffering be part of a divine plan? We discuss the theological and philosophical perspectives that helped David navigate his family's ordeal. Drawing from the story of the man born blind in the Gospel of John, we explore how afflictions may serve a higher purpose, potentially glorifying God. The conversation further examines the interplay between science and faith, asserting that true science often aligns with biblical principles. David's testimony underscores the profound purpose and opportunities to glorify God that can emerge even through the toughest challenges.
Lastly, we introduce David Libby's book, "A Different World," a detailed chronicle of his family's battle with Lyme disease and the insights they gained along the way. We guide you on how to find the book on Amazon, making it easy for our listeners to dive deeper into David's moving journey. David expresses his heartfelt gratitude for the platform to share his story, and we extend our thanks to our devoted audience for their unwavering support. Tune in for a deeply moving episode that explores the intersections of faith, reason, and the raw realities of coping with illness.
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Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me on another episode of the Dorsey Rush Show. Today we have a special guest with us. His name is David Libby. Him and his wife Lisa raised their two daughters, kayla and Bethany, in Royal Maine and rural Ming. They hunted, fished and foraged for wild edible plants, went camping in remote and undiscovered places, grew gardens, raised livestock and homesteading. Mom and David with a self-employed logger, and David were self-employed. As an unintended consequence of this lifestyle, they were bitten by dozens of ticks. About the time their girls were in their mid-teens, the whole family had become desperately ill with Lyme disease, along with a host of complications. The whole family had become desperately ill with Lyme disease, along with a host of complications.
Speaker 1:For years he served in the church, first as a deacon and then as an elder. David had been a long self-taught student of theology and philosophy. He had learned all the correct answers to some of the most difficult questions and can hold his own as a Christian apologist and theologian. When his family's health fell apart, he discovered something that the books do not teach that there is a sharp disconnect between an encyclopedia of that knowledge I'm sorry, of encyclopedic knowledge and an application of the knowledge in the muddy and bloody trenches. It is there that this book was conceived. David, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for having me, Dorsey. I'm very glad to be here.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Now tell us a little bit about yourself and you know what made you write this book.
Speaker 2:Well, I wrote the book because of the experience we had with this. You know, very serious illness and having to grapple with the tough questions and I thought that perhaps you know the conclusions that I'd come to might be helpful for other people who are also suffering.
Speaker 1:But you know, suffering was very difficult for a very long time and it really forced me to you know kind of and what you you know what you dealt with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. So the physical struggles were very serious. Illness that included, you know, the girls feeling sick all the time, but also severe pain all throughout their bodies. My wife described the pain as feeling like there were shards of broken glass all toward her body. They were debilitated at times, you know, couldn't walk at times. Severe seizures, even mental health problems, psychotic episodes and a whole lot of other stuff. So you know, that's kind of gives a little sketch of the physical. You know physiological problems.
Speaker 2:But then there are the philosophical problems and theological problems. And those would be, you know, questions like if there is a God who is good and all-powerful, then couldn't he stop this? And why are these kinds of things happening and why is there suffering in this world? And I start out the book by grappling with a question that some of the atheists from the 19th century grappled with. Ernst Haeckel, a contemporary of Charles Darwin's, coined what he called the disteleological argument. The teleological argument argues that the world appears to be designed, therefore it must have a designer, right, he said. Well, if that's true, then the designer must not be the God of the Bible, because the God of the Bible doesn't make mistakes. And look at the world it's full of mistakes. So the book kind of starts there. How do we grapple with that question, how do we answer that question? And then it moves on from there. Or actually it starts out telling my family's story, but once I get into the section, you know, third chapter, that's where it begins with Heckel's question.
Speaker 1:Now, all those issues that you described a little while ago. All that came from Lyme disease.
Speaker 2:Lyme disease was kind of the trigger for a whole lot of problems, but there were other complications as well, and a big piece of the puzzle was a genetic mutation that my wife and both daughters have but I don't have, which is why it was very easy for me to treat the disease and very difficult for them. What this mutation does is it kills the body's ability to deal with toxins, and so they were suffering not only from Lyme disease, from what the Borrelia spirochetes do to the body, but also they were suffering from all the toxins that we breathe in and that are in our food and that are on our clothing, because the Lyme had kind of helped shut down the body's ability to deal with these toxins and to process them. So it was complicated. It was complicated and very hard to treat and it took a lot of years and a lot of money. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, oh, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:And I know that experience as well.
Speaker 1:How did you come to the answer of you know? Is there a God and why would God allow you guys to go through that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So initially I guess there would be several parts to the answer that I would give. The first part of the answer would be that Ernst Haeckel with his teleological argument and he actually borrowed it from David Hume a century earlier Ernst Haeckel with his teleological argument, and he actually borrowed it from David Hume a century earlier. But his argument really is kind of a foolish one, because God has promised us that there would be trouble in this world. You know, we read in Genesis 3 that God has cursed his creation because of human rebellion, because of sin, and as a result there is pain and suffering because of God's curse. So Ernst Haeckel's argument really kind of goes like this Don't things like suffering prove that there is no God? Well, no, they don't prove that at all, because God told us that there would be suffering. God ordained that there would be. So, for example, imagine Eve having just given birth to her first child and saying wow, you know that really hurt. That must prove there is no God. Well, no, god told her that you're going to have pain in childbirth. So it doesn't disprove God at all. In fact it's part of the design.
Speaker 2:But then of course that doesn't answer all of our questions. You know God could take our trials away. Why didn't he ordain a reality where there was no fall into sin? And you know we can always push back against those answers, but I think that there are good answers in Scripture. God ordained the reality that we have for his glory. God is glorified in a display of his justice and you know where would we have an occasion for that display if there were no sin? And he's glorified in the display of his justice. And you know where would we have an occasion for that display if there were no sin? And he's glorified in the display of his mercy and grace. If there were no need for redemption, we wouldn't have this. You know, beautiful display of mercy and grace and a fall into sin and suffering gives God the occasion to display his love in profound and amazing ways, you know, in the atonement and in redemption. But you know we can still push back against those answers as well.
Speaker 2:But the end of the line answer, I believe, is found in the end of the book of Job and in Romans 9, verse 20 and elsewhere, and that answer would be he is God and I'm not. You know, at some point I need to be contented with an acceptance of what is. This is the reality that he has ordained, even if I don't understand why, even if all the why questions aren't answered. And also, by the way, scripture gives us good answers to a lot of our why questions not all the why questions, but a lot of them.
Speaker 2:We're told in Scripture that we're sanctified through trials and afflictions. Scripture uses the analogy of a fuller's soap, you know, scrubbing off all the you know pollution of sin. But also the analogy of a refiner's fire. You know, the silver and the gold are refined in the fire, and so it's in the fires of affliction that we find this sanctification and this refining. And, you know, it seems to me that people who really truly do love the Lord Jesus are drawn closer to him in times of trial. So there are good answers in Scripture, even if all the answers aren't given.
Speaker 1:Right. What would you say to people who are going through trials and going through difficulties, but they're questioning God? They're questioning God of you know why would you allow this to happen? You know they may even be like you know God. You know you told me that, yes, there would be trials, but you didn't tell me how bad these trials would be. You know, so I'm not going to. You know, I'm trying to trust in you, but the doctors are telling me X, y, z. What would you say to those people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a very good question, a very important question, and it's not all hypothetical, is it? Because those things really do happen, they happen every day. And what I would say to that person is I guess it depends on why the person's asking. If the person is doubting the existence of God because of these trials, I would say, well, no, the trials actually demonstrate that there is a God. Because he said there would be trials.
Speaker 2:But if the person is believing in God but just asking why me? Then I would say I would be very, very sympathetic, first of all because I've been there myself and it's awful easy to not be suffering and to spout out the right answers, but when you're really there it's hard. So I would be very sympathetic, but I would tell the person to focus on what you know to be true. What you know to be true is what is taught in God's Word. For example, a beautiful example is in 1 Corinthians either 1 or 2 Corinthians, I forget which chapters 4 and chapter 5. Beautiful discourse where Paul talks about trials and afflictions and we're beaten down but not crushed, and so forth, and he says that our momentary light affliction here in this life is actually contributing to, or storing up or making a contribution to an eternal weight of glory in the life to come.
Speaker 2:So I guess I would tell that person to try to focus on getting through the next minute. Don't look at the big picture, but just hang on. And as you're hanging on, be sure there is purpose behind it. God is using these trials for his glory and for your good. It's hard to accept that in the midst of the trials, isn't it? But God's word tells us that's true, and so we can trust in that. Yeah, but it is hard. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:And like you said you just said you know, think about today or think about this moment, don't worry about tomorrow. And that's exactly what the Bible says. Hey, bible says hey, you've got enough trouble over calling today, don't worry about tomorrow, Don't worry about next week or next month or several months down the road.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, well said. Yeah, you're exactly right. My daughter, bethany, used to say that you know, when she was really, really suffering. She used to say that one great comfort that she held on to was the fact that every minute that passes is a minute that will never have to pass again. So you know, focus on getting through the. You know the next few steps.
Speaker 1:You know you mentioned it a little while ago, but how is it that a God who cannot make mistakes has made a world full of mistakes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, right, yeah. That's Ernst Haeckel's disteological argument, which he borrowed from David Hume a century earlier, and my answer is by the way, there are a lot of answers that we find by well-meaning Christians. I don't mean to put them down in any way, but there are a lot of answers that I don't believe are adequate answers. I think the correct answer is that he hasn't made any mistakes. The trials and afflictions are not a mistake. They're all part of his sovereign plan, woven together, you know, for a divine purpose. And if God were not a sovereign God, that wouldn't be possible. But he is a sovereign God, you know. God's word tells us that very clearly. So my answer would be there are no mistakes. Pain and suffering aren't mistakes. They're all part of God's sovereign plan aren't mistakes.
Speaker 1:They're all part of God's sovereign plan. Amen, and I guess it goes along with what you just said For people with disabilities. We'll use that as an example For people like myself who have disabilities and we may talk to them about God and we may tell them about God and, you know, they may say well, you know, if God is perfect and God doesn't make mistakes, you know, why would he? You know, why would he allow me to be born? You know? Would you say the same thing, that that obviously God doesn't make mistakes. But how would you expound on that question to someone with a disability?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, again, I would be very, very sympathetic, of course, but I would say that, first of all, if the person doesn't believe in God, then I would say your disability is no evidence against his existence, because God's word tells us that this is what we are to expect in this world. You know what you're saying is, if there were a God, this wouldn't happen. But the God who exists, the one in the scripture, says that it will happen. So it's no evidence against his existence. But if the person is someone who believes in God, if the person is a Christian, then I would say a person is someone who believes in God. If the person is a Christian, then I would say try to change your perspective, change your focus. You could even look at the disability or the suffering as a privilege, because it's giving you the opportunity to glorify God in ways that you wouldn't have otherwise. So think of it this way If life or God gives us circumstances that would give the unbeliever grounds to shake his fist at God and curse God, but instead we love God all the more and we remain faithful to him, then we have glorified him in ways that we could not have done if we didn't have the disability or if we didn't have the suffering. So I would say, first, you know, trust him in a sovereign God. He's given us what is best for his glory and for our good and, you know, glorify him in it and know that you have the occasion to glorify him in ways that you wouldn't have if you didn't have the disability.
Speaker 2:I'm reminded of the man in Scripture who, in the Gospel of John I forget which chapter, but the man who was born blind, and the Lord Jesus healed him. And the disciples asked was it because of this man's sin or was it because of his parents' sin that he was born blind? And Jesus probably shocked them with his answer. He said neither. He was born blind so that God would be glorified when I heal him. So you know, he suffered with blindness all that time so that God would be glorified. So if we have a self-centered perspective, we might say, well, that's not fair. You know why, would you know God glorify himself, but he made me suffer in the process. But if we have a God-centered focus, then we say, wow, what a privilege. I was born blind so I could glorify God. What an awesome privilege. So a different perspective, I think, would be in order.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, for myself, you know, I've had 68 operations over my lifetime. I grew up in the church and gave my life to Christ at the age of 13. Traveling around sharing my story. You know because that's you know exactly what you're saying that God allowed me to be born this way because I can glorify him and travel around and share my story.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, and that actually right, that you actually added to my answer and you added to it beautifully, because in your case you might not have had that opportunity to share you know your story to speak, to have had that opportunity to share your story to speak to as many people as you do if it hadn't been for the disability. So he's opened up beautiful opportunities in this life as well. So, yeah, amen, brother, yeah, very well said.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:That's a lot of operations, brother 68 operations Wow.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of operations, by the way, 68 operations Wow.
Speaker 2:Isn't a biblical worldview inconsistent with science? Not at all. There are those who would like to think that aren't there, but no, not at all. In fact, I would argue so. I love philosophy and I'm actually about to launch another book that I've finished writing that gives a philosophical defense of Christian faith. It's not available yet but should be available soon. First of all, by pointing out that real science, done well, has never made a single discovery that contradicts a biblical worldview in any way. In fact I think there's a lot that's been discovered that supports a biblical worldview.
Speaker 2:But I would answer in another way as well. I would say that we're going to get into a little philosophy here, a little heady stuff here, but that science depends upon induction, and induction depends upon things like the uniformity of nature, trustworthiness of the senses and that sort of thing. We need to have a solid foundation for empiricism and so forth. A lot of fancy-sounding lingo there. But I would argue and I'm not going to get into details as to why, unless you want me to, but I would argue that we can't have any of those things without God. Those things all depend upon God.
Speaker 2:So science would not be possible, I would argue, if there were no God. Without God, we don't have any reason to believe in uniformity of nature. Well, with God we do, because God tells us so. Without God, we don't have any reason to believe that empiricism is a sound foundation. Empiricism is simply the philosophy that says that truth is determined by what we experience. But how do we know our experience is even real? Well, we know that because God tells us so in his words. So, with God, we have a solid foundation for science. Without God, we don't have a solid foundation for science, and I love science, by the way.
Speaker 1:To add on to that, to the next question. Isn't it a bit passé to still have faith in the age of reason?
Speaker 2:Not at all. I would answer that a couple different ways. Again. We'll get into a little philosophy here. First of all, I would argue that every worldview position depends upon faith on some level. So nobody can say I don't have faith.
Speaker 2:Atheists love to talk about how they don't have faith. They have reason, but their whole worldview is built on a foundation of faith. Their whole worldview is naturalistic. They don't believe in any spiritual realm. They don't believe in God. All they believe is God. They believe in matter, you know, matter in motion, matter and energy, and there's nothing more to reality than that. But how do you know? How do you know that there is nothing more to reality than matter and energy and so forth? And they can't know. They can't know. They have to accept that on blind faith. So every worldview you know we could talk about other worldviews as well, but you know I picked on the atheists, but we could pick on anybody Every worldview depends upon faith on the foundational level. So no, it's not passe to have faith. We all have faith, you know.
Speaker 2:The question is what is the object to have faith? I would argue that reason could not exist without absolute norms or laws or rules that govern right and wrong thinking rationality. So think of it this way it's impossible for your thinking to go off the rails unless there actually are rails to go off from. And how do you justify the existence of absolutes, absolute laws of rationality without an absolute lawgiver? You know we could spend a lot more time, you know, teasing that out, but I would argue that you can't. You can't justify absolutes of rationality without an absolute lawgiver. And that absolute lawgiver has to meet certain conditions, certain preconditions he has to be personal, he has to be transcendent, sovereign and immutable, and so forth, and we could go on. And those preconditions are met only in the God of the Bible.
Speaker 2:So I guess what I'm getting to is not only is it not unreasonable to believe in God, there can't be any such thing as reason without God. You know reason depends upon God. So really, reason depends upon our faith. You know it's Christian faith being true. Without the Christian faith being true there can't be any norms or laws or standards by which rationality is defined, and without that you don't have any such thing as reason. So reason depends upon God. I think it was the great theologian, st Augustine of Hippo, aurelius Augustine, who said you know, I'm paraphrasing somewhat, but he said something like I believe so that I might know. You know, I have faith so that I can have knowledge. We can't have reason without God, I guess is the point.
Speaker 1:So how do we deal with people that say that Christianity is a crook for the weak and that don't cope with the painful reality of painful side of reality?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, great question. I love that question. That was the philosopher Sigmund Freud's argument. He argued that Sigmund Freud looked at the world and humanity and world history and said wow, everywhere I look in world history, people are religious. They believe in gods or a god or some kind of religion. So how do we account for that if there is no god? And the theory he came up with was well, people have a hard time coping with these harsh realities of life that are outside of their control, and so we invent some god that we can appeal to. For example, ancient people didn't know how to deal with the tidal wave or the volcano or the hurricane, so you invent a god of the hurricane. Now we can pray to him or offer sacrifices to him, and so forth. So Freud would argue that the god was nonexistent. He was made up, and of course, in most cases that's true In modern times.
Speaker 2:What's the greatest harsh reality we can't cope with? Well, death, dying, ceasing to exist. He believes that if we die, we're gone and that's it. So we've invented this crotch, this false god that says, or this false religion that says hey, when you die, you're not gone, you get to go on, live eternally, see your loved ones again. He said that's not true, it's just a crutch. It's a crutch for weak-minded people who can't deal with the harsh reality that when you're gone, you're gone. Okay. So here's how I would answer that. I would say, mr Freud, I personally don't find the prospect of dying and ceasing to exist to be all that frightening. If I ceased to exist, I wouldn't even know I'd ceased to exist because I wouldn't exist. It's not that big a deal to me. But what is a big deal is dying and coming face to face with a just and holy God. So maybe Mr Floyd is putting the crutch on the wrong foot. You know what I mean. Maybe he can't handle the harsh reality that what he does here in this life does matter. It matters eternally, and one day he's going to stand before a just and holy God and he can't handle that. So he's invented this crutch, this false religion called atheism, you know, to avoid having to, you know, deal with that harsh reality. So I think that he's the one who's using a psychological coping mechanism, not us. Let me tell a little story about that that, I think, illustrates that point pretty well.
Speaker 2:Up here in Central Maine a few years ago, I was leading a tour, a foraging day. We were taking a group of people around and foraging for wild edible plants and showing them which kind of plants they could eat, which ones they couldn't, what, what to do with them and what time of year to pick them, and that sort of thing. And I went into the area where I was going to do this tour the day before because I wanted to scout out different plants I wanted to be able to feature, and I found a plant called Japanese knotweed growing in somebody's yard and I went and knocked on the door and said, hey, can I bring people here tomorrow to look at this patch of plants here? And the woman said, yeah, no problem. But she and I talked for a while outside her house and while we were talking, a turkey vulture soared overhead, went gliding around in circles overhead, and she looked up and said, oh wow, if there's an afterlife, I want to come back as one of those.
Speaker 2:So I took the occasion and said well, there certainly is an afterlife. We can know that because God's word tells us, but we're not coming back, as anything. There's no such thing as reincarnation. And that led into a discussion about the gospel and about the Bible. And finally, when the conversation was done, she kind of put the conversation to an end by saying well, you know what? I believe that when we're dead, we're gone, that's all there is. There's nothing that comes after this life. And then she said these are her exact words. She said, at least that's my hope. So there, she just exposed the fact that she's hoping that's her end life, hope that there is no God that we are accountable to. And that's the Aaron Sigmund Freud's argument. He's the one with the crotch, not us. So that's kind of a long answer, but that would be my answer to that argument.
Speaker 1:And even some people. They'll twist it and point it back to us and say well, we're the ones that are making up Christianity. We're the ones that are, you know, making up Christianity. We're the ones that are making up the Bible and making up, you know, jesus and him being on this earth, but we know that he was on this earth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, yeah yeah. The evidence supporting the Christian worldview is so huge, such a high volume of it, that those kind of arguments almost sound silly to me. People still make those arguments, don't they? But to argue that Jesus never existed, never walked on the earth, is just really, really silly. He's mentioned in a whole lot of extra-biblical manuscripts. The evidence is just overwhelming.
Speaker 1:The evidence is just overwhelming. Well, as we get ready to end here, can you give us one last encouragement for our listeners?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, happy to. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. I would encourage all the listeners. Well, I guess I would encourage them in different ways. I guess I would encourage them in different ways.
Speaker 2:If listeners are not Christians, then I would encourage them to really take a careful, serious look at the Christian worldview. I think you're going to find that it will stand up to scrutiny, and don't be afraid to ask the hard questions. So, if you're not a Christian, really take a careful look at the Christian worldview and look at it with this in mind. This is the most important decision you can ever make, because your eternity depends upon it. If I'm right, the Christian worldview is true. You need to be right with the true and living God, the one God who actually does exist, with the true and living God, the one God who actually does exist.
Speaker 2:So, for people who are Christians, I would say keep fighting the good fight. If you're a sufferer, like my family has been, if you're suffering trials and afflictions, then keep your eyes on the Lord. He will never leave you nor forsake you. He not only entered this world and suffered with us, he suffered for us. He suffered more than any man and he did it for us to pay the penalty for our sins. So keep this in mind as we plow forward through trials and afflictions. We serve a God who loves us. We serve a God who was ordained. Whatsoever comes to pass and he works all things, even disabilities and sufferings and trials. He works them all together for the good of those who love him. So keep our eyes on Jesus.
Speaker 1:Amen. How can people connect with you and buy your book?
Speaker 2:I'm not a technology guy, so the best answer I can give you is one that I give everybody, and they all say this is an adequate answer. So right now it's available on Amazon. I'm hoping to have it available elsewhere eventually, but right now Amazon is the best place to get it. And if you go on Amazon and look up my name or do a search for my name, david Libby, and the name of the book A Different World, so David Libby, a Different World People say it's really easy to find. So you know, I'd give a link if I had one, but I'm not a technology guy, but people say it's really easy. If you look on Amazon David Libby, a Different World you're going to find it easily. So yeah, thank to find it easily.
Speaker 1:So yeah, thank you, dorsey, I'll find it and I'll put it in the show notes for you.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that an awful lot. Yeah, thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Well, guys and girls, thank you so much for joining us today on another episode of the Dorsey Rush Show, and thank you, david, for coming on and sharing your story. And until next time, god bless, bye-bye.
