Dorsey Ross Show
Hello, my name is Dorsey Ross, and I am the host of the Dorsey Ross Show. I am a minister and itinerant speaker. I started the Dorsey Ross Show to interview people of faith who have stories of faith and overcoming trials and difficulties. In this podcast, you will hear stories of all kinds. Some will make you laugh, cry, and even say I can connect with that story or that person. I would love to encourage you to check out these stories of faith, encouragement, and inspiration my guests share on the show. I hope these stories give you hope, to get you through your week and your life. Please share them with your family, friends, co-workers, and anyone who needs a little touch of encouragement today.
Dorsey Ross Show
Timothy Reigle's Path to Healing and Leadership from Pornography Addiction
What if overcoming addiction was more about healing emotional wounds than breaking habits? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Timothy Reigle, the founder of Into the Wilderness Ministries, as we uncover his transformative journey from a youth entangled in rebellion and addiction to becoming a beacon of hope and recovery. Timothy shares deeply personal insights into how his struggles with pornography and sex addiction affected his life and marriage, and the pivotal role that faith and community support played in his healing process.
Throughout our discussion, Timothy sheds light on the pervasive issue of pornography addiction in today's hyper-sexualized culture, highlighting its damaging effects on relationships and emotional well-being. He passionately calls for Christian men to seek both spiritual and professional support, urging open dialogue within church settings. Discover how building supportive networks and embracing the healing power of Christ can help break the cycle of addiction and lead to lasting transformation.
We also explore the challenges of masculinity within the church, addressing the need for strong, godly male leadership and the impact of feeling disconnected from spiritual teachings. Timothy's story emphasizes the importance of community and accountability, encouraging men to reclaim their roles as leaders within their families and faith communities. With practical guidance and a message of hope, this episode reminds us that we are not alone in our battles and that healing and transformation are within reach.
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Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me on another episode of the Dorsi Rose Show. Today we have a special guest with us. His name is Timothy Regal. He is the founder of Into the Wilderness Ministries. He is the author of the book Men challenge to renew your faith, restore your masculinity and re-energize your family and living porn-free 10 steps to recovery, redemption and renewal. As a coach, author and podcaster, he has used his own experience in defeating addiction to help hundreds of men to overcome their addiction to porn and sex, save their marriages and become better, stronger, godly Men. He's also a licensed funeral director, a chaplain, worship leader and, most importantly, a husband and father. He has years of experience in public speaking, giving presentations and appearing on podcasts. He also hosts his own podcast, the Into the Waterness Podcast, with Timothy Riegel. Tim, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Thanks for having me Definitely.
Speaker 1:Well, I usually like to open up with an icebreaker question. Sure, Today's icebreaker question is would you rather have a rewind button or a pause button for your life?
Speaker 2:Wow, that's a tough one. That's a tough one, I would say, probably a pause button. Reason being is that my kids are teenagers now and I'd love to pause a little bit. You know I don't want to rewind. I have no regrets in my life and God has brought me through things, and so I wouldn't rewind and change anything. But sometimes I would like to slow it down and enjoy the moment a little bit longer.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, I can see that. What's something interesting about you that most people don't know?
Speaker 2:Hmm, that most people don't know. Hmm, that most people don't know. Well, the most interesting thing about me that most people think about is that I'm a. I'm a fuel director, I'm a mortician, but that's kind of my day job. But a lot of people know that about me. I guess the thing that a lot of people I guess online don't know about me is I'm an absolute history nerd that's obsessed with Abraham Lincoln. So I actually have a bust of Lincoln over my shoulder here. But I'm real big into Lincoln history and Civil War history and, of course, being in Pennsylvania like we are, there's a whole lot of that. So out in Gettysburg and things. So that's kind of my hobby and things that I do. A lot is American history type of stuff and especially Lincoln and Civil War stuff.
Speaker 1:Right, what's the last book you read that really inspired you?
Speaker 2:Hmm, I'm trying to think what I'm, what I've been reading through right now. I haven't been read. I normally am a big reader but I haven't been reading too much because I've been working on my on my new book. But what I have been reading through it's not it's it's. It's a little bit different, but I'm reading through a version of the Bible by. It's a Put together version of the Bible in chronological order, by John MacArthur is called A Perfect Life, and so what he did was take the four gospels and put them into a single narrative, and so I've been reading through that in my daily scripture reading and it's just brought an entirely new perspective on the life of Jesus versus.
Speaker 2:You know, you're used to seeing Matthew's account, mark's, luke's, john's, and to see them all as one single narrative has been very eye-opening to me for the life of Christ. So I am looking to get back into reading a little bit more. Like I said, with the last couple of months finishing up the book and stuff, I haven't had as much time to read as I would normally do. But I've been reading through that and that's been really inspiring to me, seeing the life of Christ as a single gospel narrative.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds interesting. I'll have to look into that. Can you, besides what I already read on your bio, can you give us a little bit more about yourself and what you've been through in your life? Sure, sure.
Speaker 2:So I grew up in a Christian home, I was raised in a church home, my father was a pastor actually but I got into as a teenager. I struggled a little bit, I was a little bit of a rebellious guy and kind of just needed to find my own way, and that took me down some dark paths. I got addicted to a porn as a teenager, like a lot of young men did, and still do, unfortunately and that escalated as I got older and it got a lot worse and became more frequent and became more serious. It jumped into, you know, back then it was webcams and chat rooms and stuff like that. I got married fairly young, thought that would solve everything and of course it didn't. In fact it got worse. My porn addiction got worse and eventually it made the jump into physical things where I was unfaithful to my wife and had a number of different things. And you know, I did all the, all the things you're supposed to do, right. I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I couldn't stop. You know, I talked to my pastor, I did counseling, I read all the books, I did all the Bible studies. I did all these things that you're quote unquote supposed to do and none of it helped. And that continued on for 10, 15 years to where I got caught a few times, but I always kind of went back to it and my wife and I actually separated for almost a year at one point, but we were able to get back together. So this continued, you know, on and off for many years I could never finally completely overcome it ago and kind of everything came cumberling down like I was exposed. You know all you know, kind of I got caught and exposed and everybody knew all my deep, darkest secrets and it was that time that I got serious help.
Speaker 2:There was a man who spoke into my life and helped me understand why I was addicted to porn and sex. It wasn't just that I was this, you know. It wasn't just that I was this filthy pervert that couldn't control himself. He helped me understand why, and so he helped me understand that there was something in my life that I had learned to use this as an escape from. So there was wounds, there was insecurities, fears, there was traumas, and he helped me dig deep and understand that and that made a difference for me understanding why. It wasn't that I wasn't trying or I wasn't trying hard enough or I didn't have the right habits in place, or anything like that. I didn't understand why, and so it was something that I had to heal from within. It was a heart issue. It wasn't a bad habit, it was a heart tissue, and so that helped me to find freedom in my life, and at that point, honestly, I kind of thought you know, that was it? Like, hey, you know, I solved this problem, I can move on with my life.
Speaker 2:Well, god had different ideas, as he often does, and he laid the mission on my heart that I needed to turn around and help others through the same darkness that he had brought me through. So I started mentoring some young men, reaching out to them, I started being active online and writing and posting and doing all those things, and God kept opening doors for me, which eventually led to my first book, which was just a hey, this is where you start, because a lot of guys have no idea where to even start when they're struggling with these type of things, and so I started coaching, and I've been doing that about five years now. It's one of those things where, like I said, when we open the door a little bit, god kicks it wide open, right and has just given me more and more opportunities to help and serve men. And now, with the newest book that I partnered up with my good friend and brother, jerry Adams, on Men of Grit into the Wilderness, this has a lot to do with the man as a whole.
Speaker 2:The porn addiction thing has kind of been my niche here for a while and we're kind of working on the whole man and what does it mean to be a biblical man of God. So that book is designed to focus on all these aspects of our life, our faith, our family. And that book is designed to focus on all these aspects of our life, our faith, our family, our fitness, our fellowship with other men, our leadership and our strength as men, and designed to build strong, godly Christian men. So it's been a heck of a journey, man. I mean the Lord has brought me through a lot and praise him for that. And you know most marriages wouldn't have survived what mine did and you know things could have gone wayward in a lot of different ways, but God is faithful and brought us through it and through his grace and forgiveness I'm sitting here talking to you now.
Speaker 1:Amen. Why do you think so many men are addicted to porn or get addicted to porn?
Speaker 2:Sure, I think it's a number of different things. I don't think there's one issue we can really point to no-transcript. You had to wait for the dial up internet and even before then, you know, I remember when, when I was a kid, you know I never went in there, but I remember as a kid there was a video rental store and there was that creepy room in the back with the you know sign on the door that said adults only or whatever you know, and so there was. It was harder to access back then, and before then it was magazines and things, so the access is so much easier. Now.
Speaker 2:We're in such a hyper-sexualized culture and I also think that men aren't learning properly how to deal with things in their life and which is why they're turning to porn as an escape. So, like I talked about in my own testimony, like we don't know, I use porn as a coping mechanism. Like I said, I wasn't just this filthy pervert that couldn't control himself. It became my escape, the void I was trying to fill. There was fears I was avoiding, there was things I was trying to run away from, and so I think a lot of men, when they're teenagers now, because this is so readily available. They're learning to use this to mask pain in their life and so, without properly ways to deal with that, they're running more and more to porn and it's getting worse, and then they're getting addicted, and then it's just a vicious cycle that continues on and on until they learn how to break it and heal it from the inside out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what damage does porn do?
Speaker 2:There's obvious things and there's not so obvious things. The most obvious thing at least for a lot of the guys I work with and things is the damage it does to your marriage. Right, there's betrayal, there's heartache, there's things that are it's devastating to many marriages. My marriage was lucky to survive Well, I shouldn't say lucky, it was God that helped my marriage survive. But a lot of marriages don't survive these type of things and so we know the damage that it does to that. But it's so much deeper than that and obviously it's a sinful thing. It's lust. We know that as Christians. But it's so much more than that. It's not just that we're a bunch of prudish Christians who don't want to allow anybody to have any fun. Right, that's not why we're out here telling people that porn is bad and they need to get help. It damages your relationships. It damages us individually because, like I said, we're using it as an escape. We're using it to run away from things and we're not dealing with those things. So it's having emotional problems. You know, it's kind of like that.
Speaker 2:Remember when we watched cartoons as a kid and you watch, I don't know, looney Tunes or whatever, and they talked to that mirage in the desert and you know Wile E Coyote or whatever is dying of thirst and he sees this. You know desert oasis that's going to quench his thirst, and he gets there and there's nothing there. Oasis that's going to quench his thirst, and he gets there and there's nothing there. That's kind of what it's like with porn addiction, like it promises all this escape. It promises this fantasy, this fulfillment, this validation. It promises all these things and so we use it to run away, to escape from things and to cope and to deal with stress and anxiety. But when we get there, there's nothing there. You know king solomon scripture ecclesiastes. He called it hevel in. Ecclesiastes was the hebrew word he used. It's it's grasping after the wind or a mist or a vapor. We think something's there and then we go to grab it and it's gone. There's nothing there and we're left worse off than we were before. So it damages us on the emotional level. Instead of providing relief, it actually causes more shame, more anxiety, more stress, more depression.
Speaker 2:You're seeing a lot of physical side effects now too. One of the major things we're seeing with a lot of younger men is erectile dysfunction from porn use. Porn-induced erectile dysfunction, it's called. And so men who should be at the height of their virility are having performance issues because they're watching so much porn that they've desensitized their brain that they can't even achieve or maintain erection. Had the commercials with the silver fox, the older couple and them. Well, now the ED commercials that you see during NFL games. There was NFL on today, I'm sure there was all kinds of commercials for it on there. It's marketed to younger men, it's marketed to guys like me in their 30s, and so it has those physical aspects to it. It really affects the whole of the person. It affects you physically, it affects you emotionally, it affects your relationships relationally. Obviously it's a sin issue, so it's a spiritual issue. It really does have consequences in all areas of your life.
Speaker 1:Obviously, for the Christian man, like you said, it's a sin issue that we need to turn to and ask God for. For the Christian man, like you just said, it's a sin issue that we need to, you know, turn to and ask God for forgiveness for, and help us to break that cycle and break that habit. But where else can men, you know, who else can men turn to to get that help? Because we see and this is almost like a two-part question if we see in the church they don't talk about and I mean, if they do, it's a very brief overview of it. They don't talk about sex that often. They don't talk about masturbation. They don't talk about pornography addiction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not just something that you can just pray harder for, right, yes, you should pray about it, right, and not that God can't do that, that God does amazing things sometimes. But there's work that needs to be done and it's something that too many men are suffering alone with. I think the most important thing men need to do is get help, and get help from someone who has experience with this type of thing. Like we said, a lot of churches aren't talking about it enough. It's starting to get better, but it's still a taboo subject, right, it's not being talked about from the pulpit, it's not really being talked about much in men's studies and a lot of churches just treat it as a well, yeah, you're just a filthy sinner and it kind of just beats you overhead.
Speaker 2:With the Bible, which we should condemn sin where we see sin, and it should help our brothers if we see them falling into sin, but we also need to help them and give them a path to redemption, and there isn't a lot of that. There's a lot of shame attached to it. Men are afraid to come forward because of the taboo nature of it. So men need opportunities to where they can gather with other men and get the help that they need and where someplace that they can be vulnerable. So many men are trying to just fight this battle alone and not let anyone else know about it and not get any help, because they're ashamed of their actions and don't want to reach out for help. Because of that and I did that for 15 years I was just like all right, well, I'll overcome this myself, I don't need to talk to anybody else about it, I don't need help, I can just pull up my bootstraps and get through this. Well, that doesn't work. It didn't work for me and it doesn't work for anybody else either.
Speaker 2:So getting help is the most important thing, and getting help from someone who understands the nuances and intricacies that are involved with this type of addiction. It's different from an alcohol addiction or a drug addiction or any other type of thing. There's different emotions involved, there's different urges and things that are involved with it. So reach out to someone if your pastor has experience with that and can help men with that. You know, a pastor or that's really my entire ministry is coaching men, because that's kind of the mission that God laid on my heart, because there was a need for that. There was a need for somebody the men to turn to to get the help that they need, and breaking free from that. And there wasn't opportunities for that elsewhere, and so God kind of laid that my mission on the heart to be a coach and a counselor for these guys and help them break free from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just said. You mentioned that you help men and whatnot. How do you help men?
Speaker 2:Well, it's really a three. There's kind of a three pronged approach that I use. I talked about it a little bit. The first thing is help, like I just got done, saying you need help, you need accountability is probably the most important thing, and that's one of the things that I do is all my guys that I work with, I'm their one-on-one accountability part, and that's what differs in what I do from traditional counseling or therapy. I check in with my guys every day. They're texting me or I'm texting them or calling them every single day and making sure they're doing all right. Just that accountability. Also, my teaching, my guidance, encouragement, support. I'm there to help these guys. I'm not there to what's the saying diagnose, treat, cure, prevent these guys. I'm not there to what's the the saying diagnosed, treat, cure, prevent any disease. I'm not there. I'm not a doctor, I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a you know, I'm just a guy that God brought through this darkness and put it on my heart to help other men through it. So I know where they've been, I've been there, I've experienced it, I understand it and so, being that accountability for that, being that help, that support, I'll give them a kick in the rear every once in a while if they need it too right, and so that help is so important.
Speaker 2:Second is habits. You know I was kind of saying earlier it's more than just bad habits, but we need to have good habits and get rid of bad habits with it. We need to set boundaries and set up guardrails to protect ourselves. If there's things we need to remove from our life that are leading us and making us vulnerable to sinning, we need to remove those from our life or minimize them as much as possible. I'm big on journaling, I'm big on routines, I'm big on being able to work through those things and put those habits and things in place to give ourselves the best chance of overcoming these things. And then the last thing is heart. This is like I said earlier, this is a heart issue.
Speaker 2:So I work with men to dig deep into the emotions and look back through their life and be like okay, there's a reason you're going to porn here. There's something that you're running away from or trying to escape, or maybe the opposite, something you're trying to find, a void you're trying to fill and we have to fix that from the inside out. You know, something I say all the time is porn addiction isn't something that you have to quit. It's not a bad habit that you have to quit.
Speaker 2:Porn addiction is a wound that you have to heal. You heal this addiction, you don't quit it. And so I work with men, not just on trying to avoid urges or avoid. Try to give them the strength to say no to something when they have the urge to do it. I work with them so that they heal from the inside out, so that they don't have that urge to escape. So those three things taken together the health, the habits and the heart, you know, and understanding the why, and healing that addiction rather than just trying to try harder that makes all the difference in the world.
Speaker 1:That's how I found freedom and that's how I've helped you know all the men over the years that I've helped find freedom, defeat it in their lives. For those of us that may have friends and may be, like you said, accountability partners with them and may deal, they may have a porn addiction, what advice would you give to us to help them? Like you said, give them a kick in the butt sometime when they need it.
Speaker 2:Right, right, yeah, it's truth and love, right, like scripture says. You know we need to give them truth, yeah, and we need to if they don't recognize what they're doing is wrong and you know that it's happening. You know we have a responsibility as fellow believers to help our brothers out. You know, like I said, you don't beat them over the head or shame them unnecessarily, but you come alongside and be like hey, brother, I know you're struggling, I'm here for you, support him, encourage him. He knows it's wrong deep down inside of his heart. Even if a man is defiant, he knows it's wrong deep down in his heart. He does. And so men need to be available to help other men. And that's a big problem, not just in a church but in society as a whole, is that men aren't building brotherhood and connection with other men and so they don't have men that they can go to to be that accountability and that support for them. So if it's not maybe a struggle for you, but I guarantee it's probably a struggle for people in your life. I mean, the numbers and the statistics are that bad that you know somebody you know probably is struggling with it, right? If you're not, and so be that if you're struggling with it, find help from somebody and if you aren't, be available to them, support them, encourage them.
Speaker 2:You know we want we don't just want to condemn people and just beat them over the head with their sin. We want to give them a path to repentance and recovery and redemption. Right, that's, that's Christ's example for us. Yes, he called out sin, but he also said hey, I forgive you. You know, here's the path. Follow me. You know, pick up your cross and follow me and I'll show you the way to righteousness. And that's what we need to do is emulate Christ. In that We'd be like, yes, brother, you're sinning, but let me help you to defeat that. And that's something that I think is lacking is that support and encouragement for men versus just kind of condemning them. We need that truth and love where there is no love if there isn't truth.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think a lot of men too. You know they don't want to be open with other men. You know, regardless of what the situation is, they don't want to be open with other men about what know. As Proverbs 27, 17 says, iron sharpens. Iron and men need to come together to help each other become better, stronger, godly men, and that's something that that's so needed in the world, is so needed in the church too, and so we need to create those opportunities for fellowship and brotherhood and connection. You know men need other men. You know men who are flying alone are vulnerable, and so they need brothers beside them in the battle.
Speaker 1:The next question that I see on your website I found interesting why has the church become feminized?
Speaker 2:And it's a lot of a vicious cycle here. So there aren't men in the church, women go to church two to one ratio. We've allowed societal change to infiltrate the church and allowed that kind of weakness and that things that are not biblical to infiltrate the church, and so there aren't things there for men and because of that men aren't going, and because men aren't going there aren't things for men, and it's just this vicious cycle. And so we need men to step up and be that strength and be those leaders in the church. You know, men are called to leadership. Men are the head of their households, like Christ is the head of the church, and there's a lot of men that aren't stepping up and being the strong godly leaders that they need to be, and so in turn you see the weakness overtake the church and a lot of the Western evangelical church. We see this kind of femininity come in and feminization of the church. To where there's no strong leadership, it's all based on emotions. There's no adherence to the truth of's no strong leadership, it's all based on emotions. There's no adherence to the truth of the word of God, it's all very kind of surface level, very shallow teaching.
Speaker 2:Like you said, we aren't there, aren't teaching the deep truths of scripture. You aren't talking about a porn addiction or sex or these hard issues. We're talking about feel good stuff. Sermons are much more like a TED talk or like a self-improvement seminar oftentimes than they are preaching the word of God, and so, because of that, men can't connect with that. Because men want truth, they want substance, they want to lead, and so it's created this kind of vicious cycle, and so men aren't in the church, men aren't getting what they need, so they're falling prey to things like porn addiction and men aren't leading the church, so the church is falling prey to other things that strong men would protect the church from. And so it's just this vicious cycle. And what we need is strong, godly men to be bold, be confident, be courageous and step up and start being warriors for God's kingdom, instead of sitting off to the side, comfortable and complacent.
Speaker 1:Yeah. How has your faith played a role in your recovery?
Speaker 2:Well, it played a huge role and it wasn't just like I said earlier. It wasn't just that I prayed for God to take it away, even though I did, but it was essential in that. And the apostle Paul had a thorn in his flesh and we don't know exactly what that was, but he prayed for God to take it away and three times God said no and he said my power is made perfect in your weakness. When you are weak, I am strong, and that's what God did in my life too. This was a weakness of mine and he turned it into a strength. He helped me through it and now is helping me, giving me the mission to help other men. But in my own life, it was his love and forgiveness that helped me through it.
Speaker 2:For myself, I felt too broken. You know that I was damaged goods, that I was beyond forgiveness, beyond repair. That I'm just. This is just who I am. I'm destined for whatever you know, punishment.
Speaker 2:I'm due that I'm too far gone, I'm not worthy of Christ's forgiveness. But that's not true. We are, you know, we all have fallen, sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We're all deserving of death, but Christ died for all of us, even the guys who are filled with shame and regret and are addicted to terrible things and have committed horrible sins against our God, against our families, against our wives. He washes us white as snow and makes us whole again, and it was that knowledge that gave me the hope to overcome this, based on my own strength. I could have never done it but because I had that forgiveness and I had that hope and I had God as my refuge in my strength. Psalm 46 says I had the courage and the perseverance to overcome it that I would not have had on my own. And so Christ forgave me and put me on this path of pursuing righteousness and helping others to fight the same battles I did.
Speaker 1:Amen. What do you think about groups like Celebrate Recovery? Do you think that they help men and women with porn addiction?
Speaker 2:I think groups like that are helpful. I certainly do. I haven't dealt specifically with Celebrate Recovery in regards to porn addiction. I've never gone through any of their programs or anything. Certainly they're helpful and I know they've been a huge help for a lot of people with drug and alcohol addiction. I've had friends that have gone through CR for substance abuse, addiction and things like that. Those groups are always helpful. I mean, anytime you get a group of people together and can be there and support each other and keep each other accountable and give each other tools in order to do it, it's a good thing.
Speaker 2:With the porn addiction specifically, though, I do think there's an element that is helpful of also having that one-on-one, and that's why I do what I do. I don't do any sort of group coaching or I don't work with women or couples or marriage counseling or anything like that. I just work one-on-one with men, and so I think there's a level of that that you that you need to go deeper. You know if you're, if you're as helpful as those groups are, if you're in a group with 15, 20 other people, you're only going to go so deep right and into your own things that you need to deal with. It's certainly helpful, certainly beneficial. I don't want to discourage anyone from from going to those things that they do, but being able to have that one-on-one guidance, that one-on-one brother in the battle with you, is huge. And having that in my life helped in my recovery and now I see the difference in the guys that I work with of having that one-on-one guidance and encouragement and support to break free is huge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. As I get rid of the end here. I always like to ask my guests one last question. Can you give my audience and my listeners one last encouragement?
Speaker 2:My encouragement would be that you're not alone. You're not alone. If you're listening to this and it's kind of resonated with you maybe you're struggling with this, or you know someone's struggling with it or you have in the past just know that you're not alone. There is hope. You're never too broken. You're never beyond Christ's forgiveness. You're not too far damaged that Christ can make you whole again and wash you white as snow. And the most important thing you need to do is trust in him, have faith in him and then reach out for help. You know there are men like me out there. There are resources out there. Get help and stop trying to fight this battle alone and have hope and you could find a freedom, like I did.
Speaker 1:Amen, Well, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. It's always greatly appreciate having you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Thanks. And where can people reach out to you and connect with you if they wanted to? You know talk to you or you know connect with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can visit my website. It's just my name, timothyregalcom. Or you can follow me on social media, mostly on Twitter and Instagram, or my name, my screen name on there is just my name, timothy Regal. Message me on there, shoot me an email, contact me through my website. I'd be glad to reach out and help you.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, guys and girls, thank you so much for coming on and listening again. We greatly appreciate having you. I'll have Tim's contact on the show notes and please like and review the show and, you know, check out my website as well, which is also in the show notes. And until next time, bye-bye, bye-bye.
